"Brooks and Capehart on Biden at the G-7 summit, the Justice Department under Trump" PBS NewsHour 6/11/2021
SUMMARY: New York Times columnist David Brooks and Washington Post columnist Jonathan Capehart join Judy Woodruff to discuss the week in politics, including President Biden at the G-7 summit, the Justice Department under the Trump administration, and how redistricting will impact the nation's political makeup.
Judy Woodruff (NewsHour): And to the analysis of Brooks and Capehart. That is New York Times columnist David Brooks, and Jonathan Capehart, columnist for The Washington Post.
And they are in person here with me.
David Brooks, New York Times: We're here.
(LAUGHTER)
Judy Woodruff: I can touch you. Actually, you're in the studio. This is exciting. I have got to figure out how I'm going to get through this conversation.
(LAUGHTER)
David Brooks: It's so weird to be doing it while wearing shoes.
(LAUGHTER)
David Brooks: Unusual.
(LAUGHTER)
Judy Woodruff: Exactly, instead of our house slippers.
So much to talk about.
And, Jonathan, let's just quickly pick up with where Dan Bush left off.
Texas, really important decision for them to make about these new districts. They have got to figure out how to draw those lines. What is at stake? With the Congress so evenly divided, what's at stake here?
Jonathan Capehart, Washington Post: What's at stake is the majority for the Congress, whether the — excuse me — whether the Democrats will maintain their very slim majority or, as a result of redistricting, not just in Texas, but around the country, whether the lines will be drawn in such a way that gives an advantage to Republicans going into the 2022 midterms before a vote has even been cast.
And, you know, with Texas, the influx of people, the population growing, a lot of them in the urban centers that went for Democratic candidates, and yet the way the districts can be drawn, that voting power very well might end up resulting in districts that would be drawn for Republicans to do better in.
Judy Woodruff: So, what — how can Democrats counter this, David? How do you see this shaking out, given what's going on in…
David Brooks: Yes, I think prayer would help.
(LAUGHTER)
David Brooks: You know, I think the Democrats I talk to want to maintain the House. They don't expect to.
Jonathan Capehart: Yes.
David Brooks: As I would — they would — somebody said, it would take a miracle.
Miracles could happen. And it could happen. But in midterm elections, when one party controls both houses of Congress and the White House, then their records in these first midterms tends to be terrible.
And then there's the population shift, which we have been hearing about. That, by itself, is probably enough to get the Republicans four or five, six, seven seats. And then there's the redrawing of the lines. And Republicans just control a lot more state legislatures.
Now, I should say, I'm more focused on population shifts than on gerrymandering, because, while I think these lines, these — the legislatures draw our gross and unwieldy, and it's the politicians selecting the voters, I don't think the effect is that big.
In the middle of the 20th century, you had a big effect where Democrats had a natural advantage, because of the way they drew the lines. Then, in the early 20th century, the Republicans had a pretty big effect, maybe 20 more seats than you would think from their vote totals.
But, recently, it's been a pretty small effect. It's been in the single digits. So — and that's in part because half the states, it's not partisanly drawn. And so…
Judy Woodruff: For different reasons.
Jonathan Capehart: Well, what we have happening here is, it's not just redistricting. We have what I call a perfect storm brewing.
You have got redistricting, on top of voter laws that have been voted into Georgia, Florida. Texas, Democrats did a dramatic move to keep their law from going into effect, but a special session will be called, and those laws might well go through. Iowa. Arizona.
And so those laws being put in place. Democrats call them voter suppression laws. They will keep people, primarily Black and brown people, the young, from getting out to vote. Not every — not every eligible voter will be able to vote and not — every legally cast vote might not be counted. And that's what's at danger — in danger as well.
Judy Woodruff: And all this getting more attention. Usually, we're waiting for census data, waiting to see what each state does, certainly in the spotlight.
Let's turn, David, to our lead tonight. And that is President Biden in Europe meeting with the British prime minister, meeting with his counterparts in the so-called G7.
What is — why does this trip matter for him? What does he need to do?
David Brooks: Well, he needs to show that America is back. And he — and back and cooperating with people. And I have traveled on delegations he's made to Munich to the Security Conference they have there. And what you see is, he's on first-name basis with everybody, like, with the world leaders, with the doormen in the hotel. He's been doing it for so long. And so I think there's a little of that personal diplomacy.
And I think they're proud of the fact they got this vaccine thing done. I spoke to a White House official today. And they said the last four weeks have really been a sprint to get this, so we could offer half-a-billion vaccines and get our allies to another…
Judy Woodruff: Huge number.
David Brooks: .... another half-a-billion.
And that will all be done by the middle of the next year. And so they are surprised they could get to this. They thought we would not be in a state where we had so many vaccines, we would have enough to buy and then share with the world. And I think they want to show that we're in the generosity business again, and that America can be a generous nation in the world, a little Marshall Plan.
And I think they'd love to get to a spot where it's not a nation-by-nation fight against COVID. It's a little more of an interdependent global fight against COVID. And so they're pleased with that.
They are under no illusions that American-European relations are going to go back to the way they used to be in the Cold War. That's not going to happen. But they're very pleased, and I think legitimately so.
Judy Woodruff: How do you see the way — what is at stake for Biden and his agenda here and globally?
Jonathan Capehart: Well, I think, to your point, the President knows all of these people. He was a senator for 36 years, Vice President for eight years.
Yes, he is on a first-name basis. His mantra is, America is back. But there's a piece in, I think it was The Times of London asking the question, OK, but do the words match the deeds?
And I do think that there's some skepticism in Europe about whether the President's focus on China, whether that's taking attention away from them, whether the President, President Biden, is continuing former President Trump's policies vis-a-vis China. Think of tariffs.
Judy Woodruff: Yes.
Jonathan Capehart: And then other things that Vice President Biden is doing that former President Trump talked about, withdrawing from Afghanistan.
So I think what we're seeing, yes, it's not going to go back to the way it was. And I do think that the world now is, like, they're happy the United States is back in the fold, but I think they have figured out over the last four years, we can't really depend on the United States, especially when it comes to — President Biden's mantra is also democracy. We have to show that democracy works.
But those world leaders are watching what we're doing here, the last conversation we had about voting rights. How can you have a democracy if voting rights are at risk?
Judy Woodruff: So, it's — David, it's the pandemic that has shifted the landscape, of course, but it's also the Trump — the four years of Donald Trump.
David Brooks: Yes, PTSD, they have got, whatever, post-traumatic Trump is.
(LAUGHTER)
David Brooks: They wonder if this four years is an interregnum, and that Trump will be back. They wonder if a Trump-like figure will be back.
And so they — there's some sense America's fundamentally less stable. And then we are more America first. I mean, Biden is not as America first as Trump was, but you look at our purchasing decisions as a government, it's America first. And we're just living in a world where multilateral cooperation is less emphasized, frankly, from a lot of countries all at once.
And that has just been a trend of the last 25 years, as nationalism has become a stronger force in the world and across the West and in Asia. And, somehow, there's just been a deterioration in our willingness to cooperate on a whole range of fronts.
Judy Woodruff: Harder, in other words.
Jonathan, I hear you saying this is harder than one might have expected coming out of Trump and — President Trump and assuming everything's going to be easier for President Biden globally.
Jonathan Capehart: Right, harder.
But I think, from President Biden's perspective, for someone who knows all of these people, I think he's counting on and banking on the fact that those relationships will help smooth over some of the harder things that they have to deal with.
And you know what? If I were President Biden, I would think that my chances, my odds were good, not great, but good.
David Brooks: We have been on a lot of calls with Biden administration officials, and they're weirdly normal. It's like democracy is in crisis, the world's falling apart.
(LAUGHTER)
David Brooks: But they're like as if it's like 1955. It's like, no, no, no, everything — we will cooperate, we will compromise, we will have these civil discussions.
And I don't know if they're just putting that face on that we live in a normal world anymore, but they're very normal.
Jonathan Capehart: I think they would probably say — yes, they are very normal.
But I what I take from that is, you know what? These are people who are competent. They have been in these jobs before. They know what the pitfalls are. And they also know that everything is on fire, but at least they know the terrain.
Judy Woodruff: Well, speaking of everything being on fire, David, in the last few days, we have learned that the Trump administration was trying in a number of ways that we find now surprising to seize data from not just journalists — and that's been in the news — but Democratic members of Congress, going after their cell phone records, the data, and their family members, even children.
We have now got an investigation under way. What does this tell us about what was going on under President Trump?
David Brooks: Yes, the Trump Justice Department keeps looking worse and worse, even more — worse than it was when it was in office.
When there's a leak of confidential information, there's going to be an investigation. We understand that. But they tried an investigation. They didn't dig up anything on the people they wanted to get, Adam Schiff and people like that.
And so they relaunched another investigation using extremely aggressive means. And prosecutors or investigators have some discretion over how aggressive they're going to be. And I would say they got so aggressive, not only so aggressive, that it's super invasive to those of us in the media and people in Congress.
But it just looks like a political witch-hunt. And Donald Trump is out there in public saying Adam Schiff should be investigated. And, lo and behold, the people in the Justice Department take political orders. And that's not what they're supposed to do. The Justice Department, it's never pure, but it's always supposed to be a step removed from politics, so we have some sense of justice.
Judy Woodruff: Is this something, Jonathan, that President Trump can be held accountable for, ultimately? I mean…
Jonathan Capehart: I mean, that, I don't know. I mean, I really don't know. I can't see — as much as everyone — and I shouldn't say everyone — a lot of Democrats and people who had a lot of problems with Donald Trump, they would love to be able to say, oh, this is what's going to take them down, meaning send him to jail, hold him accountable.
I'm not sure. But, again, I'm not surprised. It's sort of like you're shocked, but you're not shocked, because we watched this in real time. The one thing about Donald Trump, he allowed our imaginations to go wild, because, if you let them go wild, you actually kind of know what's happening.
And this story, to my mind, is that situation of, when you're imagining — when reality catches up with your imagination.
Judy Woodruff: He was publicly going after Adam Schiff.
Jonathan Capehart: Right.
Judy Woodruff: He was speaking about him, tweeting about him. Eric Swalwell. Well, I mean, these are — but to be using your Justice Department, the Justice Department that belongs to the American people, this way…
Jonathan Capehart: Look, I would hope, I would hope, if proof is found that he directly ordered the Attorney General to do these things, then, absolutely, he should be held accountable.
But I don't see — I just don't see it happening at this point right now, given what we know.
Judy Woodruff: Well, one thing's for sure. We are thrilled that the two of you are here in the studio.
(LAUGHTER)
Judy Woodruff: And I know everybody watching is too.
Jonathan Capehart, David Brooks, thank you.
(CROSSTALK)
David Brooks: It's good to be with you, Judy.
(CROSSTALK)
Judy Woodruff: Thank you both. Really good to see you both. Thank you.
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