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SUMMARY: Syndicated columnist Mark Shields and New York Times columnist David Brooks join Judy Woodruff to discuss the week’s political news, including reports of a whistleblower complaint that might involve President Trump, the debate about whether a sitting President can commit a crime and the U.S. response to attacks on Saudi oil facilities.
Judy Woodruff (NewsHour): And now we turn to the political analysis of Shields and Brooks. That is syndicated columnist Mark Shields and New York Times columnist David Brooks.
Hello to both of you.
Let's start with our lead story tonight. And that is the whistle-blower from the intelligence community.
The word gets out — or this person is alleging that he that the President, in a conversation with — now we think it's the President of Ukraine, urged the president of Ukraine, Mark, to investigate Joe Biden's son.
And we have a — there's still no — the President denies it, and others do, but now we have several news outlets backing up the story. And I was just handed — and you have seen it — a statement by Joe Biden.
He says:
"If these reports are true, there's truly no bottom to President Trump's willingness to abuse his power and abuse our country. This behavior is particularly abhorrent because it exploits the foreign policy of our country and undermines our national security for political purposes."
How seriously should we be taking these allegations?
Mark Shields, syndicated columnist: I think they're enormously serious.
And the fact that The Wall Street Journal is leading this story, along with The New York Times and The Washington Post, but this is not false or fake news or anything of the sort. It's not a political vendetta of any sort.
And this is quite beyond a Playboy model or a frat party at an Ivy League school or anything of the sort. This is really serious. This is totally exploiting the national security, putting at risk the national security of the United States for narrow political, personal interests, if, in fact, the reports are true.
And I guess the most disturbing thing to me, Judy, was the President accused the whistle-blower, who, at enormous risk, and it required considerable courage, of being an extreme partisan, which means, (A) that somebody in the White House knows who the whistle-blower is.
This is mafia-like threats. We know who you are. And they have investigated his political affiliation or her political affiliation. I mean, so, I think it's enormously grave.
Judy Woodruff: And, in fact, the President — David, the President was saying today to the television cameras that people in the White House were making fun of all this.
Are we looking at something where it's going to be a he said/he said situation going forward?
David Brooks, New York Times: Well, presumably, the call was listened to by others and recorded. So, I'm not sure it was recorded, but it was certainly listened to. These calls are not — it's not just a one-on-one call. There's people on the line.
You know, I think it is pretty grave. Most Presidents go into the White House thinking, I'm here to serve the office, I'm here to serve America.
Donald Trump is using America to serve him and American foreign policy to serve him. And most Presidents go into the office thinking that the phrase my fellow Americans means something and that we have greater loyalty to our fellow Americans than we do the people in outside countries.
And he's basically using another country to be oppo research on his fellow American.
And I think this rises to more a level — I'm not sure this really is foundationally changing, but it rises to a different revel, if there's a connection between the foreign aid and the promise.
Judy Woodruff: Right.
David Brooks: That really is using — suborning U.S. government money for your own private gain. And that's clearly corruption of a high order.
Judy Woodruff: And, as both of you are saying, Mark, we don't know for a fact that this happened. But the evidence is now building, the reporting is building.
And there are two strands. It is urging the leader of another country to get involved in a political campaign, but then the quid pro quo, potentially.
Mark Shields: No, exactly, Judy.
To say, look, be in touch with my Dr. Dirt, my oppo research guy, who once was America's mayor and is now doing smear jobs.
Judy Woodruff: Rudy Giuliani.
Mark Shields: Rudy Giuliani. How the mighty have fallen to that point where he's an errand boy to be a hit man on political opponents.
No, David put it very well. I mean, this is a total, total corruption of the — if it's valid and if it's accurate — and I think that the news reports are done very soberly, quite honestly, because they take their position — their mission seriously.
If it's true, Judy, then I don't see how the Democrats can back off on impeachment investigation.
Judy Woodruff: And I want to ask you about that because this week, David, as both of you have pointed out, the President's lawyers were in court.
They were arguing against a New York lawsuit, an attempt to get the President's tax returns to be turned over, to be made public. And the President's lawyers are saying you can't investigate a President while he's sitting in office.
What we're learning today in these reports about Ukraine raise questions about that.
David Brooks: Yes, this was the Nixon defense with David Frost, that, if a President does it, it's not illegal. And it didn't work for Nixon. I'm not sure it would work for here.
I mean, a basic principle of our government is that no person is above the law. And so I don't think that will work.
I am struck — I do think, if there's a link to the foreign aid, the Democrats obviously have to launch a different and new investigation.
I'm struck mostly by, when President Trump does something out in the open, or Rudy Giuliani does something out in the open, like, it doesn't become a big thing. Now that we have something secret that the press have uncovered, suddenly, it blows up.
But Giuliani wasn't shy about this. And the fall of Giuliani is one of the great stories of our age. I covered him a lot when he was mayor, extremely brilliant, extremely sharp, not the man I see today.
The one continuity is that he would sit around with his staff and watch "The Godfather" movies over and over again.
Mark Shields: Wow.
David Brooks: And the mob behavior — this really is mob behavior. It's like, let's dig up dirt on this guy.
That's the way it strikes me, more than anything else.
Judy Woodruff: Well, and, again, Mark, with these — with the President's lawyers fighting back, which they have been — they have been fighting all these attempts to get any information turned over.
Mark Shields: Right.
Judy Woodruff: But this is the first time we have heard them argue a President can't be investigated.
Mark Shields: Can't be investigated.
I agree with David about the Nixon defense. Nixon, of course, invoked that defense in 1977, three years after he had been forced out, in an interview with David Frost.
But no President — he did prove that, and by his own statement and his own actions, that no President can be above the law.
And, no, I really think the gravity of this is yet to be fully appreciated.
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