Excerpt
SUMMARY: New York Times columnist David Brooks and Washington Post deputy editorial page editor Ruth Marcus join Judy Woodruff to discuss the week in politics, including the historic government shutdown, a report that President Trump instructed Michael Cohen to lie to Congress, and the growing list of possible Democratic candidates for President in 2020.
Judy Woodruff (NewsHour): So, the shutdown was just one of a handful of major stories this week to rattle Washington and point directly to the Oval Office.
To help make sense of it all, the analysis of Brooks and Marcus. That's New York Times columnist David Brooks and Washington Post columnist Ruth Marcus. Mark Shields is away.
Hello to both of you.
Ruth Marcus, Washington Post: Hi.
Judy Woodruff: So, the shutdown.
David, they were it again this week, but no movement. Is one side — we saw what the poll results are saying, but is one side winning this, or not?
David Brooks, New York Times: No. They're all losing.
It's gone from like junior high food-fight to nursery school sandbox fight. I don't know. It just gets worse.
And, weirdly — I don't want to get too grandiose, but it reminds the World War, the lead-up to World War I, where each side thinks the other side, surely, they will cave. But neither — and they're both vastly misestimating the other side. And neither side thinks they're going to cave. They both took the other side will cave.
And so it gets worse and worse. I have been moderately hopeful in the last couple weeks. That's all evaporated for me.
And I blame Trump, mostly. I blame the Republicans in the Senate a lot. I really think, if there's a key leader who can get us out of this gridlock, it's Republicans taking some control in the Senate and saying, we're going to go forward with something. If Pelosi and Trump want to come with us, that would be good.
There has to be some way forward to get out of just the gridlock.
Judy Woodruff: But Mitch McConnell, Ruth, has he's not going to touch this until he knows what the President would sign.
Ruth Marcus: Indeed.
And he — his view is, let everybody else work it out. I — when I was negotiating that — and finding deals, that was with a Democratic President. So now let the Democratic leader in the Senate, Chuck Schumer, let him handle it.
Nobody wants to be involved in this, because it's so — it's both solvable and intractable at the same time. It's solvable for all the reasons that caused David's optimism, and it's intractable because there is nothing to gain with your own base that you have to worry about by solving it.
And you started out by saying that nothing happened this week. But I think, as David said, actually, something did happen this week.
Judy Woodruff: Well…
Ruth Marcus: It got worse.
Judy Woodruff: All right, forgive me.
(LAUGHTER)
Ruth Marcus: We're worse off this week than we were a week ago.
Judy Woodruff: Yes.
And now, we are told, the President is going to make a — quote, unquote — David, "major announcement" about all this tomorrow. Somebody was speculating maybe he's going to announce an emergency, the government's going to take over this and do the wall itself.
But a lot of — there's some reason to think he might not do that.
David Brooks: Yes, I hope he doesn't. I think he won't.
Often, major announcements are only major in the minds of those doing the announcing. They seem like just restatements of the same position over and over again. So, we could see that. Who knows. I don't know.
I would be surprised if he did the emergency thing. That — there's just so much upset, even in the Republican Party, about that. That — if there's anything that would lead to the weakening of the Republican-being-stuck-with-Trump position, that would do it.
Judy Woodruff: But, Ruth, you don't see any inkling that one side is feeling more heat than the other side?
Ruth Marcus: I don't. I think they are each dug in.
They want the solution, but they want the other person on the other side to blink first. I thought I — earlier today, I was worried that I was being too negative. So I did a round the phone calling on the Hill. And what I discovered was that I simply wasn't being negative enough, that I talked to folks who were like, I have been around for all these shutdowns, and this is the worst I have seen it, and I don't see the way out of it.
I almost wonder if there wouldn't be some element, as much as people would balk at the notion of declaring the emergency at this point, since it seems so bleak, to get out of it, if they wouldn't give a little bit of a pass for that.
I think that — I'm not encouraging that. I think it would be dangerous and constitutionally dangerous. But we have to find some way out of this also.
Judy Woodruff: So maybe it is World War I all over again.
So, the other thing that happened overnight, David, is, you have this report — only one news organization so far — but BuzzFeed is reporting, they're quoting law enforcement sources as saying that the investigators have evidence that the President told his former attorney Michael Cohen to lie to Congress.
David Brooks: Yes.
This is significant for a couple reasons. One, it's a felony the President allegedly committed while being President, unlike all the previous stuff. And then it is a bit of a — he's President of the United States or running for office, and he puts the U.S. national interest behind his own interest in getting a Trump Tower built in Moscow.
And so these are both very serious things. David French of "National Review" pointed out that, in Michael Cohen's sentencing agreement months and months ago, this was right out there in the open for all of us, that Cohen's lawyers said he did — he lied to Congress because person number one, Donald Trump, told him to do it, and he didn't have the strength to resist.
And so that suggests there's some meat to this. BuzzFeed is a real news organization, it should be said.
And the final thing, the thing that is of interest to me in the BuzzFeed report, you can't tell whether they have written evidence. They say there's a trove of documents. They say there's a trove of e-mails and texts. But is there an actual piece of paper with Donald Trump saying, lie to Congress? That would be pretty explosive, if that exists.
Judy Woodruff: Or a recording.
Ruth Marcus: Or a recording. 'Lordy, let there be tapes,' as somebody said.
If true, this is beyond explosive. It's not just an impeachable offense, but an offense that you could actually imagine even this Republican Congress not just impeaching the President for, because, of course, that's up to a Democratic House, but convicting him and removing him from office for.
But it would require not only for it to be true, but for it to be evidence that's more than simply a swearing contest between one person with a history of less than truth-telling, the President, and another person who is an admitted liar, Michael Cohen.
So, not the — not the best witness for the prosecution or the impeachment prosecution. But if you had evidence to back it up, this is really, really a serious allegation.
Judy Woodruff: But it looks as if, David — I mean, talking to Jamie Raskin, who's involved in House leadership few minutes ago, it looks as if at least the Democrats are talking about an investigation, whether they move on to the impeachment.
David Brooks: Right.
And a lot of this is about putting the Republicans — the Democrats where they are — where they — are we really going to impeach, or are we not? Where does their emphasis go?
This is an interesting debate on the left. Do we want this guy impeached, or do we want to vote him out? Which is better for the country? I think voting him out would be better for the country.
But if — as the evidence mounds, you really have no choice.
Ruth Marcus: It's interesting.
I know many Democratic members of Congress who believe, as David said, they would be better off running against Donald Trump than against whoever the Republicans would put up in his place.
But this is, as Jamie Raskin was suggesting, an insult to the very constitutional system, the notion that you could, as a sitting President, suborn perjury, about an — not just about a general matter of government, but tell somebody to lie in order to protect your own business interests and your own private conduct.
That cannot be allowed. The reason we know it can't be allowed is that Bill Barr, the nominee for attorney general…
Judy Woodruff: Said so.
Ruth Marcus: Said so in hearings with questions that now sound prescient.
No comments:
Post a Comment