SUMMARY: New York Times columnist David Brooks and Washington Post columnist Jonathan Capehart join Judy Woodruff to discuss the week in politics, including the Jan. 6 insurrection investigation, the infrastructure and budget negotiations in Congress, and vaccination efforts in America.
Judy Woodruff (NewsHour): From aspirations around infrastructure to political cracks in the investigation into the insurrection, there is a lot to unpack with the analysis of Brooks and Capehart.
That is New York Times columnist David Brooks and Jonathan Capehart, columnist for The Washington Post.
Hello to both of you on this Friday.
Jonathan Capehart, Washington Post: Thanks, Judy.
Judy Woodruff: It's always so good to see you.
Let's start with the fireworks this week, David. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi surprised, I think, a lot of people by saying, no, I'm not going to accept two of the five Republicans appointed to this January 6 select committee. And then, in turn, you had Kevin McCarthy, the House minority leader, saying, well, if you are going to do that, I'm going to pull the whole group.
What did you make of all this? Does it move the process forward? What do you think?
(LAUGHTER)
David Brooks, New York Times: No, it's round 947 of stupidity in Congress, I guess.
We had this commission. The idea is, you each — in normal life, in a normal country, the two parties would get together, leaders would get together, and say, let's put — do this commission, important to understand. We have a basic kind of person we want on this commission, the kind of people who is trusted by both sides, and then we will put some honorable people, trustworthy people on this commission. And we will get to the answer.
But, of course, none of that obtains in this situation. Pelosi and McCarthy never get together. There are very few people trusted on both sides. And then McCarthy takes the extraordinary step of appointing Jim Jordan and Jim Banks, two people who are explicitly opposed to the commission, and would clearly undermine it.
He could have picked any one of dozens of other people who would have been quiet and seemed sort of normal. But this is like throwing it right in your face. And Pelosi then takes another extraordinary step of not letting the Republicans pick their own people.
And so it's just one escalation of dysfunction after another. And we're not going to get, at least out of Congress, a bipartisan investigation.
Judy Woodruff: What did you make, Jonathan, of the arguments that each one of them was making here? And where does that leave this whole thing?
Jonathan Capehart: Well, I just want to push back on something David just said, that Speaker Pelosi wouldn't let Leader McCarthy pick his own people.
He picked five people, or he picked — he picked Republican members. Two of them, as you rightly said, were basically stink bombs in the process. But he was given the opportunity to choose people. He decided to throw a huge wrench in the process.
I think I have said it on this air. And I'm going to say it again. For Nancy Pelosi, for Speaker Pelosi, her faith in the Constitution is only second to her Catholic faith. She takes her role as a constitutional officer in the United States government extremely seriously.
So, for her, getting to the bottom of why Americans storm the U.S. Capitol to overturn a free and fair election, at the behest of the then sitting President of the United States, is something that is important to her. It is vital for the history of the country.
And so for Kevin McCarthy to do what he did, and then to blame her, blame her for — she's the reason why the Capitol Police weren't prepared, to me, listening to — listening to House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy had shades of — had flashbacks to Benghazi.
January 6 is the new Benghazi. Speaker Pelosi is the new Hillary Clinton. The Capitol — she didn't have the Capitol Police prepared enough is the Hillary Clinton gave a stand-down order. It is theatrics on the part of Kevin McCarthy. It is constitutional duty that Speaker Pelosi is trying to engage in.
Judy Woodruff: David, Kevin McCarthy more to blame here than the speaker?
David Brooks: I think, on balance, yes, more to blame.
I think Republicans should still get to pick, but, clearly, they would have screwed up the whole works. Why did Jordan and Banks get picked?
Well, (A) it could have been so Nancy Pelosi would throw them off, and McCarthy could have a fit. He must have foreseen that.
Jonathan Capehart: Right.
David Brooks: She's not going to — and, second [B], it's further regulatory about where the party is, that it's more a [Jim] Jordan party than it is a Cheney party, Liz Cheney.
And so the party is still over there. And McCarthy is not an ideological person, but he probably knows where the center of his caucus is.
And just this afternoon, I read a piece in The New York Times by Michael Wolff, who's written three books on Donald Trump, just had dinner with him, saying he was certain Trump was going to run for President again. And if he's going to run for President again, then I guess that's the center of the party, and that's what McCarthy has to genuflect to.
Judy Woodruff: And, given that, Jonathan, that's — I mean he's — I mean, this is a minority leader of the party who is responding to the — in his view, the titular head of the Republican Party.
Jonathan Capehart: Right, and also taking his cues where he thinks the base of the party is.
And then there's another golden rule to keep in mind. I told you the golden rule about Speaker Pelosi. Here's the golden rule about House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy. Everything he says, everything he does is geared to one goal, becoming Speaker of the House.
That's why you see him doing what he's doing.
Judy Woodruff: Infrastructure, our favorite subject.
(LAUGHTER)
Judy Woodruff: I know you're dying to talk about it.
Negotiators are still negotiating, David, but it looks like — the smoke signals look like something's going to happen. Are you getting the sense that this is going to be a good thing? What is your — how are you reading all this?
David Brooks: We should have Thomas the Tank Engine to talk about infrastructure. It would be more PBS-like.
(LAUGHTER)
Judy Woodruff: Wait a minute.
(LAUGHTER)
David Brooks: In a good way.
You know, I think what's interesting to me is that there — for those who remember last week's episode, there are two bills. There's a bipartisan bill that's smaller and infrastructure-y. And then there's a partisan reconciliation bill that's more progressive.
One would have thought the partisan-only bill would have had smoother sailing, because it's all — just all Democrats. But, to me, it looks like the bipartisan bill is progressing, progressing, progressing. And we will know, of course, they're negotiating and there are stops and starts. But that bill seems to be really moving forward.
And I begin to wonder. Say they pass or at least get a deal on the bipartisan bill. Do a bunch of moderate senators on the Democratic side say, I got what I need, I really don't need this other bill?
And so I wonder if the bill I thought was more secure is actually more in trouble, which would be the partisan reconciliation.
Judy Woodruff: You mean in trouble among Democrats?
David Brooks: Among Democrats.
Judy Woodruff: Among Democrats.
How are you reading this, Jonathan?
Jonathan Capehart: Well, you mentioned smoke signals. To me, that says that something might be on fire.
And so, just before we came out here, a story hit about how there's another wrinkle. Last week, it was Republicans were against the pay-for by the IRS enforcement. You had the interview yesterday with Senator Capito.
Judy Woodruff: Right.
Jonathan Capehart: And you asked her a question about that.
Then, earlier this week, it was — I guess, even this morning, battle over transit funding, the proportion of transit funding. Then, just before we came on, there's a story about there's consternation with — among Democrats because Republicans are pulling out something related to the prevailing wage.
It seems like this bipartisan bill that you have so much hope for, there's still so many moving pieces and so many embers that are burning that I don't know if the bipartisan bill is really going to — is going to make it. We will see on Monday. So they say.
Judy Woodruff: Yes, we will learn more earlier — early next week, we think.
Vaccine politics.
David, we are now seeing more Republicans, a few more Republicans come out and say openly, hey, people, please get vaccinated, Steve Scalise, who's the number two Republican in the House of Representatives, a number of Republican governors, including Kay Ivey of Alabama.
And I'm reading what she said in part this week: "It's time to start blaming the unvaccinated folks, not the regular folks. The unvaccinated let us down."
I mean, that's not all Republicans, but it's — how significant is it?
David Brooks: I loved what she said. I think that is true.
If we face a shutdown again, herd economy, poor people laid off, that's not the disease. That's human error. And that's us.
And so getting more aggressive, the way she is, and the way some others strikes me as absolutely right. Will it be effective? I'm not so sure. I think, once Donald Trump and other Republicans made it a manhood issue, or a freedom issue, or whatever kind of issue they made it, it's hard to walk back that culture war signal.
And it comes at a time when the party has trouble talking about collective good and the common good, and how we're all in this together. We're certainly all in the air we breathe together.
And so I'm not — I think that has been dug deep into American history, but especially the Republican Party right now. And I'm not sure Mitch McConnell saying a few things is going to reverse that trend.
Judy Woodruff: How do you — how much difference do you think this could make?
Jonathan Capehart: This being more…
Judy Woodruff: A few more Republicans in the media, as well as conservatives in…
Jonathan Capehart: I have to — David just spoke for me in what he said.
I think, if we had had a President of the United States who took this seriously when this first came on the scene, if we had a Republican Party that took this seriously enough to warn everyone, their constituents saying, wash your hands, then put on a mask, then go get the vaccine, we wouldn't be where we are right now.
And I agree with David. I think that this has become such a cultural point that, even if Donald Trump were to come out tomorrow and say, you know what, not only did I get COVID, I survived it, and I also took the vaccine, and you should too, so you can vote for me again in 2024, he could say all of that, and, to David's point, I think the point has been driven so far deep, that he won't convince anyone, no one to get the vaccine who doesn't want to get it right now.
Judy Woodruff: How do you — David, I mean, what kind of a divide is this among Republicans?
I mean, is it based on science? Is it — how do you read what's going on here?
David Brooks: Yes.
The people I know personally who are not getting the vaccine, for them, it was like, they rushed this thing. Who knows what's going to happen to all these people who get the shots in 10 years or 20 years? So, why should I take the risk?
And that's not completely crazy, but it's not — it's based on some sense of general distrust for the establishment, including the medical establishment. And that establishment — that distrust is the core of this thing.
If we lived in high society, where we all felt the institutions of our society could be trusted, we'd all get the shots. But the pervasive distrust, which really started in the '60s and 70s with Vietnam and Watergate, and has been ramping up pretty steadily over the last five decades, that's the core villain here.
And how do you get people to trust each other and societies like this, the fundamental problem in America right now? And it's a very big one.
Judy Woodruff: And there's still a stubborn — or a core out there, Jonathan, of people who are saying, I'm not going to take this.
There was a new survey out this afternoon, I think, from the Associated Press, people saying, I am not going to get it, no matter what.
Jonathan Capehart: Which is — it breaks my heart, because you read stories of the — I think it was a doctor in Alabama who wrote about — talked about how, before she intubate someone, they plead with her, can I have the vaccine, and she's, I'm sorry, it's too late, and then going to the family members and saying, honor your loved one, get the vaccine.
And they tell her, I thought it was all politics. I thought it was a hoax.
That just broke my heart, because that says, to David's point, trust in anything and anyone that isn't themselves, it's completely broken down, completely.
Judy Woodruff: And, I mean, I remember seeing an interview this week with a man in the — in his hospital bed after serious COVID saying, even if he had it all to do over again, he wouldn't get vaccinated, that he so distrusts — it's just what you said.
David Brooks: Religion is a powerful thing.
(LAUGHTER)
David Brooks: And I would just say, we have got to make it so to get into any fun thing to do in America, you have to show your card.
And that, to me, I think is the only way to do it.
Judy Woodruff: David Brooks, Jonathan Capehart, both of you, stay safe. The Delta variant is out there.
Jonathan Capehart: You too, Judy.
(LAUGHTER)
Jonathan Capehart: Thanks, Judy.
Judy Woodruff: Thank you.
